With the All-Star Game upcoming, we at Snobs vs. Slobs decided to have a little discussion as to who should represent each league in Detroit this year. Like the MVP voting, nearly everyone has a different idea of what makes an “All-Star,” but Taft and I agreed much more than we disagreed.
(I can’t really speak for Taft, but I really hate the All-Star Game. Because of the nature of small sample size, a lot of players get rewarded for having good first halves, yet there is no ASG for second-half performers. Guys like Paul LoDuca [quick starters but big-time faders in the second half] are always rewarded, yet end up with mediocre season numbers, while Chipper Jones won the 1999 MVP, yet wasn’t on the All-Star Team. In 2000, Frank Thomas was second in the AL in MVP voting. He was not an All-Star.
Moreover, the fact that the winner determines home-field advantage in the World Series is ridiculous. That the fans vote for all the starters, except the most important one, the starting pitcher, is ridiculous. That each team [including the Royals and Rockies] must be represented is ridiculous. It’s just a ridiculous thing.)
With that said, here is our discussion on the National League:
AT: Okay. Basically, I give preference to players who are having exceptional – not merely good, but exceptional seasons… players like that this year fitting that criteria are Brian Roberts and Derrek Lee. Beyond that, I tend to vote for players who are amongst the league leaders in OPS and have been good players in years past as well… there’s no sense in voting for a guy who’s first in the league in OPS if he’s ahead by two points and is coming off consecutive seasons of .250/.320/.400 hitting.
RG: OK, so no flukes?
AT: Well… no, flukes are allowed, but they have to be exceptional flukes. Like, who knows if Dave Roberts is going to hit .363/.434/.603 for the rest of the year? He probably won’t—he probably won’t have as good of a season in his career as he is having this year. But should he be rewarded for having such an exceptional first half? I think so.
RG: I guess. But, that plays to my problem with the ASG: there’s no second-half ASG. Too many players have OK first halves and end up with monster numbers. The example I always cite is Chipper Jones in 1999. Not an All-Star, but an MVP.
RG: The way I pick the team is a bit stickier. I look at the leading VORP getters at each position and pick off whom (out of the top five) says “All-Star” to me. Generally, this means I’ll vote for a guy who’s had a HOF career rather than a fluke guy, but not always.
RG: As we’ll see, some postitions have no clear All-Star, so I tend to simply pick the best guy in VORP for that position.
AT: Sure, but there are examples of that every year. The All-Star Game isn’t that important. Being named an All-Star is nice, but for a player like Chipper Jones, that’s just one less “ASG” that will go onto his plaque.
RG: Well, maybe not. the BBWA looks at that sort of thing, and I don’t want a BBWA member to say “Hey, Chipper Jones only made five All-Star Games, he shouldn’t be in the HOF.” They say stuff like that (one of the players I voted for may be an example of that).
AT: That’s reasonable. I tended to pick Win Shares when I couldn’t make up my mind.
RG: Anyway, let’s get to our votes.
AT: Okay, shall we start with the visitors, the National Leaguers?
AT: At catcher, I have Michael Barrett.
RG: I have Mike Piazza.
AT: The Pizza Man? But Ross, he is no longer delivering.
RG: Actually, he is. He ranks second in VORP for NL catchers behind Paul LoDuca. And, the difference is a scant .8 points of VORP. So, this is a good example of a clear HOFer as my choice.
AT: He’s hitting .264/.323/.439 with 8 homers.
RG: He’s slugging .439 in one of the hardest parks to hit in the NL. Not bad for a catcher.
AT: Barrett: .273/.311/.468, 8 HR. Very similar numbers, Piazza’s OBP is a bit better.
RG: Even if Wrigley didn’t play to hitters more than Schea (which it is, this year), Barrett’s only slugging .468. That’s not enough of an edge to beat Piazza in my eyes. Piazza isn’t having a Mike Piazza season, but his 60% seasons are better than nearly everone else in the NL catching.
AT: Okay, but Barrett is tied for first in win shares for a catcher. He isn’t a great defensive catcher, but he has 2.6 fielding win shares compared to Piazza’s 0.6 – the worst among regulars in the NL. If you get a single, it’s a double with Piazza catching.
RG: Yeah, I don’t care about defense. I know Piazza sucks behind the plate, but he has been so good for so long, he just screams “All-Star” to me.
AT: That’s fine. I’m not going to argue long and hard about Piazza playing catcher… he’s had a great career and despite the fact that he’s thrown 5 out of 47 base stealers so far this season (9.6%), he’s the best hitting catcher ever, and this will probably be his last season as a catcher, so might as well let him go out with an ASG appearance.
RG: Right. Exactly.
AT: I think we might have a more intriguing argument at first base, where clearly I’m voting for Derrek Lee.
RG: Yeah, I am, too.
AT: You just can’t resist that .388/.466/.719.
RG: As much as I like Pujols, and he fits my methodology pretty well (future HOFer, great career v. career-year), Lee is blowing everyone out of the water.
RG: Already (in late June), he is over 18 points of VORP ahead of Pujols. Basically, he’s six wins better than Pujols right now. That’s absurd.
AT: Believe it or not, he is only leading Pujols by two win shares right now, but he is leading NL 1B in batting and fielding win shares.
RG: Plus, I feel confident that Pujols will start at DH.
AT: I think that Lee will start at DH. The fans get to vote in the starters, and at last count, Pujols had about 100,000 votes on Lee.
RG: That’s OK. I think we can agree that they both deserve to be there.
AT: Absolutely. Pujols is having another exceptional year, Derrek Lee is having the best year out of anybody.
RG: Right. Ain’t that a bitch, though? Pujols has all these great years behind Bonds. Then, Bonds gets hurt and an alien inhabits Derrek Lee’s body. Thatsucks for Pujols.
AT: Oh, boo hoo. He hits .330/.400/.600 every year. He will win his fair share of awards.
RG: Yeah, it sucks for him. What else can he do? He’s hit like Ted Williams-lite and has nothing to show for it.
AT: At second base, I have Jeff “Molester ‘Stache” Kent from the LA Dodgers
RG: Yeah, I have Kent, too.
RG: He’s No. 1 in VORP and I think he’s a borderline HOFer. Another ASG won’t hurt his chances at the Hall.
AT: Kent’s hitting .290/.367/.509 in a tough hitter’s park, he’s got 14 homers… he’s 37 years old. He’s clearly the best offensive 2B in the NL. He’s got a career .506 slugging percentage. He’s clearly a Hall of Famer, and I think he’ll get voted in.
AT: Maybe not on the first ballot, but he deserves to go in on the first ballot.
RG : He might. If he’s compared to his comtemporaries (Biggio and Alomar), he does not compare favorably.
AT: I don’t know. He has a hell of a lot more homers than both of them and Alomar won’t go in on the first ballot, I don’t think. His star really fell with his collapse in NY.
RGBiggio has more ASGs and is associated with a single team. Writers love that stuff. Also, more Rawlings Gold Gloves. Better OBP.
AT: Time will tell. Maybe they all will go in. I think they all deserve to.
RG: I agree.
RG: Yes, anyway, this is not about Jeff Kent’s chances at the Hall.
AT: No. It’s about the showtown in Motown. This one counts, Ross.
RG: Yes. It does.
RG: I voted for Felipe Lopez at SS.
AT: As did I, although I really toyed with voting for Eckstein
RG: After Lopez, there is no one in the NL worth voting for.
AT: But I just couldn’t. He’s so tiny. And he needs to run like 3 steps to throw the ball.
AT: Plus, he’s on the Cardinals, which never works in a player’s favor when trying to land on my All-Star ballot.
RG: I’m not in love with Lopez, but the next guy is Bill Hall, and he’s not exactly ASG-worthy.
AT: But Lopez is having a great season for the Reds – he’s hitting.301/.348/.551 and has 13 homers, the most of any NL shortstop
AT: All of the good hitting shortstops are in the AL, I should say.
RG: Yeah, he’s a very good player, I’m just not familiar with him.
RG: Well, Jimmy Rollins, Khalil Greene and Rafael Furcal aren’t terrible. They’re just not All-Stars.
AT: What happened to Furcal this year?
RG: He stinks.
AT: He super-stinks. .228/.283/.355
RG: He can’t get on base, he can’t drive the ball and he isn’t even playing good defense. I’ve heard speculation that he’s hurt, but I don’t know that for sure.
AT: It’s weird… Khalil Greene is a player that would be a good guy to vote for in the All-Star game. – he finished 2nd in ROY voting last year, he’s slick with the glove. But this year he’s hitting .249/.292/.396. Oof. Bad year to be a shortstop in the NL. We all know what happened to Nomar
RG: Yeah, Green seems to be the only guy on the Padres who stinks this year and Nomar’s injury still looks disgusting. Even when I know it’s coming, I’m always suprised how much that looks like it hurts.
AT: Okay, at third base I have another Cub, Aramis Ramirez.
RG: Yeah, I have David Wright.
AT: My second choice.
RG: As you have Cardinals, I have Cubs. I cannot vote for the Artists Formerly Known as the Snugglies.
RG: Wright is second in VORP and he seems to me to be more of an “All-Star” than A-Ram. I think Wright’s going to see a lot of ASGs in his career. He’s a very good player.
AT: Well, I agree with you, Wright’s going to be a great player… but you can’t say that he’s “more” of an All-Star than Grimace. He’s one of those guys who didn’t make the All-Star team last year but wound up with monster numbers: .318/.373/.578. This year he’s at it again: .302/.362/.567 with 17 homers and 20 doubles. He’s leading 3B in OPS.
RG: Yeah, and a grand slam Saturday that I could’ve done without.
RG: I agree, A-Ram deserves to be there. I just can’t, as a Sox fan, vote for more than one Cub.
AT: Okay, fair enough. After all, it is the all-star game, and personal biases are as good of a reason as any to not vote for someone
AT: Speaking of which, that is why Jim Edmonds is not in my outfield.
RG: Right.
AT: Now, I should say that when I vote for an All-Star outfield, I vote for one at each position, even though that’ snot required. That’s just the way I do it.
RG: I don’t do it that way, although it worked out like that this year in both leagues for me.
RG: I have Andruw Jones, Jason Bay and Bobby Abreu.
AT: Left to right, I have Adam Dunn, Andruw Jones and Bobby Abreu
AT: Adam Dunn is having a great season, but I half voted for him because of all of those comments he made about his Sharper Image chair.
RG: Bay is second in VORP among NL outfielders, Jones fourth and Abreu first.
RG: Miguel Cabrera is third, but I figure Willis will start the game, so the Marlins don’t need another starter. Stupid reason, but, whatever.
RG: I wanted to vote for Dunn, as he’s a favorite of mine, but he hasn’t done much this year, as compared to some other guys.
AT: In Win Shares, it’s Bobby Abreu, Brian Giles, Luis Gonzalez, Adam Dunn and Jim Edmonds in the top six. I almost voted for Giles but Dunn had those good quotes.
AT: Hasn’t done much? He’s got a .956 OPS!!
RG: Yeah, at the Great American (S)Mallpark. You could slug .400 there.
AT: .246/.391/.566
AT: Dude, he’s still getting on base 39 percent of the time. He has 20 homers. That’s nothing to sneeze at.
RG: .305/.384/.567
AT: Who cares about the batting average? Look how much he walks
RG: Bay’s line this year: .305/.384/.567. Bay gets on base slightly less, but slugs the same in a harder park to hit.
RG: Trust me, I wanted to vote for Dunn. He’s wonderfully entertaining and a TTO (Three True Outcomes) player. I love the guy.
AT: I think that perhaps we should both defer to Brian Giles… because his numbers are .279/.413/.496. PetCo is really tough on lefties, and I think we’ll both agree that getting on base is more important than slugging, and Giles is doing it better than both Bay and Dunn. But he only has 9 dingers. That’s very unsexy.
RG: Yes, Giles is fifth in VORP, Dunn sixth. I like Giles a lot. But Bay’s been better, 6 points of VORP better (two wins).
AT: Second in win shares and fifth in fielding win shares. I’m changing my LF vote to Giles. If only I could go back in time and recast all of my 25 electronic All-star Ballots…
AT: Somebody’s gotta represent those Friars.
RG: Dude, Jake Peavy.
AT: And their entire bullpen.
To recap:
Taft’s ballot
C- M. Barrett
1B- D. Lee
2B- J. Kent
SS- F. Lopez
3B- A. Ramirez
LF- A. Dunn
CF- A. Jones
RF- B. Abreu
Ross’ ballot
C- M. Piazza
1B- D. Lee
2B- J. Kent
SS- F. Lopez
3B- D. Wright
OF- J. Bay
OF- A. Jones
OF- B. Abreu
Back tomorrow with the AL.